Ath.Most true,Cleinias;and I daresay that I may have expressed myself obscurely,and so led you to imagine that I was speaking of some really existing state of things,whereas I was only saying what regulations I would like to have about music;and hence there occurred a misapprehension on your part.For when evils are far gone and irremediable,the task of censuring them is never pleasant,although at times necessary.But as we do not really differ,will you let me ask you whether you consider such institutions to be more prevalent among the Cretans and Lacedaemonians than among the other Hellenes?
Cle.Certainly they are.
Ath.And if they were extended to the other Hellenes,would it be an improvement on the present state of things?
Cle.A very great improvement,if the customs which prevail among them were such as prevail among us and the Lacedaemonians,and such as you were just now saying ought to prevail.
Ath.Let us see whether we understand one another:-Are not the principles of education and music which prevail among you as follows:you compel your poets to say that the good man,if he be temperate and just,is fortunate and happy;and this whether he be great and strong or small and weak,and whether he be rich or poor;and,on the other hand,if he have a wealth passing that of Cinyras or Midas,and be unjust,he is wretched and lives in misery?As the poet says,and with truth:I sing not,I care not about him who accomplishes all noble things,not having justice;let him who "draws near and stretches out his hand against his enemies be a just man."But if he be unjust,I would not have him "look calmly upon bloody death,"nor "surpass in swiftness the Thracian Boreas";and let no other thing that is called good ever be his.For the goods of which the many speak are not really good:first in the catalogue is placed health,beauty next,wealth third;and then innumerable others,as for example to have a keen eye or a quick ear,and in general to have all the senses perfect;or,again,to be a tyrant and do as you like;and the final consummation of happiness is to have acquired all these things,and when you have acquired them to become at once immortal.But you and I say,that while to the just and holy all these things are the best of possessions,to the unjust they are all,including even health,the greatest of evils.For in truth,to have sight,and hearing,and the use of the senses,or to live at all without justice and virtue,even though a man be rich in all the so-called goods of fortune,is the greatest of evils,if life be immortal;but not so great,if the bad man lives only a very short time.These are the truths which,if I am not mistaken,you will persuade or compel your poets to utter with suitable accompaniments of harmony and rhythm,and in these they must train up your youth.Am Inot right?For I plainly declare that evils as they are termed are goods to the unjust,and only evils to the just,and that goods are truly good to the good,but evil to the evil.Let me ask again,Are you and I agreed about this?
Cle.I think that we partly agree and partly do not.
Ath.When a man has health and wealth and a tyranny which lasts,and when he is preeminent in strength and courage,and has the gift of immortality,and none of the so-called evils which counter-balance these goods,but only the injustice and insolence of his own nature-of such an one you are,I suspect,unwilling to believe that he is miserable rather than happy.
Cle.That is quite true.
Ath.Once more:Suppose that he be valiant and strong,and handsome and rich,and does throughout his whole life whatever he likes,still,if he be unrighteous and insolent,would not both of you agree that he will of necessity live basely?You will surely grant so much?
Cle.Certainly.
Ath.And an evil life too?
Cle.I am not equally disposed to grant that.
Ath.Will he not live painfully and to his own disadvantage?
Cle.How can I possibly say so?
Ath.How!Then may Heaven make us to be of one mind,for now we are of two.To me,dear Cleinias,the truth of what I am saying is as plain as the fact that Crete is an island.And,if I were a lawgiver,I would try to make the poets and all the citizens speak in this strain,and I would inflict the heaviest penalties on any one in all the land who should dare to say that there are bad men who lead pleasant lives,or that the profitable and gainful is one thing,and the just another;and there are many other matters about which I should make my citizens speak in a manner different from the Cretans and Lacedaemonians of this age,and I may say,indeed,from the world in general.For tell me,my good friends,by Zeus and Apollo tell me,if I were to ask these same Gods who were your legislators-Is not the most just life also the pleasantest?or are there two lives,one of which is the justest and the other the pleasantest?-and they were to reply that there are two;and thereupon I proceeded to ask,(that would be the right way of pursuing the enquiry),Which are the happier-those who lead the justest,or those who lead the pleasantest life?and they replied,Those who lead the pleasantest-that would be a very strange answer,which I should not like to put into the mouth of the Gods.The words will come with more propriety from the lips of fathers and legislators,and therefore I will repeat my former questions to one of them,and suppose him to say again that he who leads the pleasantest life is the happiest.