Cle.True.And therefore you may be as free as you like in your censure of our laws,for there is no discredit in knowing what is wrong;he who receives what is said in a generous and friendly spirit will be all the better for it.
Ath.Very good;however,I am not going to say anything against your laws until to the best of my ability I have examined them,but I am going to raise doubts about them.For you are the only people known to us,whether Greek or barbarian,whom the legislator commanded to eschew all great pleasures and amusements and never to touch them;whereas in the matter of pains or fears which we have just been discussing,he thought that they who from infancy had always avoided pains and fears and sorrows,when they were compelled to face them would run away from those who were hardened in them,and would become their subjects.Now the legislator ought to have considered that this was equally true of pleasure;he should have said to himself,that if our citizens are from their youth upward unacquainted with the greatest pleasures,and unused to endure amid the temptations of pleasure,and are not disciplined to refrain from all things evil,the sweet feeling of pleasure will overcome them just as fear would overcome the former class;and in another,and even a worse manner,they will be the slaves of those who are able to endure amid pleasures,and have had the opportunity of enjoying them,they being often the worst of mankind.One half of their souls will be a slave,the other half free;and they will not be worthy to be called in the true sense men and freemen.Tell me whether you assent to my words?
Cle.On first hearing,what you say appears to be the truth;but to be hasty in coming to a conclusion about such important matters would be very childish and simple.
Ath.Suppose,Cleinias and Megillus,that we consider the virtue which follows next of those which we intended to discuss (for after courage comes temperance),what institutions shall we find relating to temperance,either in Crete or Lacedaemon,which,like your military institutions,differ from those of any ordinary state.
Meg.That is not an easy question to answer;still I should say that the common meals and gymnastic exercises have been excellently devised for the promotion both of temperance and courage.
Ath.There seems to be a difficulty,Stranger,with regard to states,in making words and facts coincide so that there can be no dispute about them.As in the human body,the regimen which does good in one way does harm in another;and we can hardly say that any one course of treatment is adapted to a particular constitution.Now the gymnasia and common meals do a great deal of good,and yet they are a source of evil in civil troubles;as is shown in the case of the Milesian,and Boeotian,and Thurian youth,among whom these institutions seem always to have had a tendency to degrade the ancient and natural custom of love below the level,not only of man,but of the beasts.The charge may be fairly brought against your cities above all others,and is true also of most other states which especially cultivate gymnastics.Whether such matters are to be regarded jestingly or seriously,I think that the pleasure is to be deemed natural which arises out of the intercourse between men and women;but that the intercourse of men with men,or of women with women,is contrary to nature,and that the bold attempt was originally due to unbridled lust.The Cretans are always accused of having invented the story of Ganymede and Zeus because they wanted to justify themselves in the enjoyment of unnatural pleasures by the practice of the god whom they believe to have been their lawgiver.Leaving the story,we may observe that any speculation about laws turns almost entirely on pleasure and pain,both in states and in individuals:these are two fountains which nature lets flow,and he who draws from them where and when,and as much as he ought,is happy;and this holds of men and animals-of individuals as well as states;and he who indulges in them ignorantly and at the wrong time,is the reverse of happy.
Meg.I admit,Stranger,that your words are well spoken,and Ihardly know what to say in answer to you;but still I think that the Spartan lawgiver was quite right in forbidding pleasure.Of the Cretan laws,I shall leave the defence to my Cnosian friend.But the laws of Sparta,in as far as they relate to pleasure,appear to me to be the best in the world;for that which leads mankind in general into the wildest pleasure and licence,and every other folly,the law has clean driven out;and neither in the country nor in towns which are under the control of Sparta,will you find revelries and the many incitements of every kind of pleasure which accompany them;and any one who meets a drunken and disorderly person,will immediately have him most severely punished,and will not let him off on any pretence,not even at the time of a Dionysiac festival;although Ihave remarked that this may happen at your performances "on the cart,"as they are called;and among our Tarentine colonists I have seen the whole city drunk at a Dionysiac festival;but nothing of the sort happens among us.