Ath.The natures of commensurable and incommensurable quantities in their relation to one another.A man who is good for a thing ought to be able,when he thinks,to distinguish them;and different persons should compete with one another in asking questions,which will be a fair,better and more graceful way of passing their time than the old man's game of draughts.
Cle.I dare say;and these pastimes are not so very unlike a game of draughts.
Ath.And these,as I maintain,Cleinias,are the studies which our youth ought to learn,for they are innocent and not difficult;the learning of them will be an amusement,and they will benefit the state.If anyone is of another mind,let him say what he has to say.
Cle.Certainly.
Ath.Then if these studies are such as we maintain we will include them;if not,they shall be excluded.
Cle.Assuredly:but may we not now,Stranger,prescribe these studies as necessary,and so fill up the lacunae of our laws?
Ath.They shall be regarded as pledges which may be hereafter redeemed and removed from our state,if they do not please either us who give them,or you who accept them.
Cle.A fair condition.
Ath.Next let us see whether we are or are not willing that the study of astronomy shall be proposed for our youth.
Cle.Proceed.
Ath.Here occurs a strange phenomenon,which certainly cannot in any point of view be tolerated.
Cle.To what are you referring?
Ath.Men say that we ought not to enquire into the supreme God and the nature of the universe,nor busy ourselves in searching out the causes of things,and that such enquiries are impious;whereas the very opposite is the truth.
Cle.What do you mean?
Ath.Perhaps what I am saying may seem paradoxical,and at variance with the usual language of age.But when any one has any good and true notion which is for the advantage of the state and in every way acceptable to God,he cannot abstain from expressing it.
Cle.Your words are reasonable enough;but shall we find any good or true notion about the stars?
Ath.My good friends,at this hour all of us Hellenes tell lies,if I may use such an expression,about those great Gods,the Sun and the Moon.
Cle.Lies of what nature?
Ath.We say that they and divers other stars do not keep the same path,and we call them planets or wanderers.
Cle.Very true,Stranger;and in the course of my life I have often myself seen the morning star and the evening star and divers others not moving in their accustomed course,but wandering out of their path in all manner of ways,and I have seen the sun and moon doing what we all know that they do.
Ath.Just so,Megillus and Cleinias;and I maintain that our citizens and our youth ought to learn about the nature of the Gods in heaven,so far as to be able to offer sacrifices and pray to them in pious language,and not to blaspheme about them.
Cle.There you are right if such a knowledge be only attainable;and if we are wrong in our mode of speaking now,and can be better instructed and learn to use better language,then I quite agree with you that such a degree of knowledge as will enable us to speak rightly should be acquired by us.And now do you try to explain to us your whole meaning,and we,on our part,will endeavour to understand you.
Ath.There is some difficulty in understanding my meaning,but not a very great one,nor will any great length of time be required.And of this I am myself a proof;for I did not know these things long ago,nor in the days of my youth,and yet I can explain them to you in a brief space of time;whereas if they had been difficult I could certainly never have explained them all,old as I am,to old men like yourselves.
Cle.True;but what is this study which you describe as wonderful and fitting for youth to learn,but of which we are ignorant?Try and explain the nature of it to us as clearly as you can.
Ath.I will.For,O my good friends,that other doctrine about the wandering of the sun and the moon and the other stars is not the truth,but the very reverse of the truth.Each of them moves in the same path-not in many paths,but in one only,which is circular,and the varieties are only apparent.Nor are we right in supposing that the swiftest of them is the slowest,nor conversely,that the slowest is the quickest.And if what I say is true,only just imagine that we had a similar notion about horses running at Olympia,or about men who ran in the long course,and that we addressed the swiftest as the slowest and the slowest as the swiftest,and sang the praises of the vanquished as though he were the victor,-in that case our praises would not be true,nor very agreeable to the runners,though they be but men;and now,to commit the same error about the Gods which would have been ludicrous and erroneous in the case of men-is not that ludicrous and erroneous?
Cle.Worse than ludicrous,I should say.
Ath.At all events,the Gods cannot like us to be spreading a false report of them.
Cle.Most true,if such is the fact.