Ath.Excellent.I was running on too fast,Cleinias,and you impinged upon me,and brought me to my senses,reminding me of what,indeed,had occurred to mind already,that legislation was never yet rightly worked out,as I may say in passing.-Do you remember the image in which I likened the men for whom laws are now made to slaves who are doctored by slaves?For of this you may be very sure,that if one of those empirical physicians,who practise medicine without science,were to come upon the gentleman physician talking to his gentleman patient,and using the language almost of philosophy,beginning at the beginning of the disease and discoursing about the whole nature of the body,he would burst into a hearty laugh-he would say what most of those who are called doctors always have at their tongue's end:-Foolish fellow,he would say,you are not healing the sick man,but you are educating him;and he does not want to be made a doctor,but to get well.
Cle.And would he not be right?
Ath.Perhaps he would;and he might remark upon us that he who discourses about laws,as we are now doing,is giving the citizens education and not laws;that would be rather a telling observation.
Cle.Very true.
Ath.But we are fortunate.
Cle.In what way?
Ath.Inasmuch as we are not compelled to give laws,but we may take into consideration every form of government,and ascertain what is best and what is most needful,and how they may both be carried into execution;and we may also,if we please,at this very moment choose what is best,or,if we prefer,what is most necessary-which shall we do?
Cle.There is something ridiculous,Stranger,in our proposing such an alternative as if we were legislators,simply bound under some great necessity which cannot be deferred to the morrow.But we,as Imay by grace of Heaven affirm,like,gatherers of stones or beginners of some composite work,may gather a heap of materials,and out of this,at our leisure,select what is suitable for our projected construction.Let us then suppose ourselves to be at leisure,not of necessity building,but rather like men who are partly providing materials,and partly putting them together.And we may truly say that some of our laws,like stones,are already fixed in their places,and others lie at hand.
Ath.Certainly,in that case,Cleinias,our view of law will be more in accordance with nature.For there is another matter affecting legislators,which I must earnestly entreat you to consider.
Cle.What is it?
Ath.There are many writings to be found in cities,and among them there,are composed by legislators as well as by other persons.
Cle.To be sure.
Ath.Shall we give heed rather to the writings of those others-poets and the like,who either in metre or out of metre have recorded their advice about the conduct of life,and not to the writings of legislators?or shall we give heed to them above all?
Cle.Yes;to them far above all others.
Ath.And ought the legislator alone among writers to withhold his opinion about the beautiful,the good,and the just,and not to teach what they are,and how they are to be pursued by those who intend to be happy?
Cle.Certainly not.
Ath.And is it disgraceful for Homer and Tyrtaeus and other poets to lay down evil precepts in their writings respecting life and the pursuits of men,but not so disgraceful for Lycurgus and Solon and others who were legislators as well as writers?Is it not true that of all the writings to be found in cities,those which relate to laws,when you unfold and read them,ought to be by far the noblest and the best?and should not other writings either agree with them,or if they disagree,be deemed ridiculous?We should consider whether the laws of states ought not to have the character of loving and wise parents,rather than of tyrants and masters,who command and threaten,and,after writing their decrees on walls,go their ways;and whether,in discoursing of laws,we should not take the gentler view of them which may or may not be attainable-at any rate,we will show our readiness to entertain such a view,and be prepared to undergo whatever may be the result.And may the result be good,and if God be gracious,it will be good!
Cle.Excellent;let us do as you say.
Ath.Then we will now consider accurately,as we proposed,what relates to robbers of temples,and all kinds of thefts,and offences in general;and we must not be annoyed if,in the course of legislation,we have enacted some things,and have not made up our minds about some others;for as yet we are not legislators,but we may soon be.Let us,if you please,consider these matters.
Cle.By all means.
Ath.Concerning all things honourable and just,let us then endeavour to ascertain how far we are consistent with ourselves,and how far we are inconsistent,and how far the many,from whom at any rate we should profess a desire to differ,agree and disagree among themselves.
Cle.What are the inconsistencies which you observe in us?
Ath.I will endeavour to explain.If I am not mistaken,we are all agreed that justice,and just men and things and actions,are all fair,and,if a person were to maintain that just men,even when they are deformed in body,are still perfectly beautiful in respect of the excellent justice of their minds,no one would say that there was any inconsistency in this.
Cle.They would be quite right.
Ath.Perhaps;but let us consider further,that if all things which are just are fair and honourable,in the term "all"we must include just sufferings which are the correlatives of just actions.
Cle.And what is the inference?
Ath.The inference is,that a just action in partaking of the just partakes also in the same degree of the fair and honourable.
Cle.Certainly.
Ath.And must not a suffering which partakes of the just principle be admitted to be in the same degree fair and honourable,if the argument is consistently carried out?
Cle.True.